I need some opinions

[eclipse92gsx]

Ok, here's the story: My friend and I are attempting to go through a whole engine and drivetrain rebuild in his 92 tsi. We have the block and head at the machine shop, we have a rebuilt tranny with dual syncro 2nd. gear, and we're going to get stronger axels and a new t-case. Anyways I was looking to see if anyone had opinions on clutches, which was good for the money, whether to go full disc or a 4 or 6 puck, I just wanted to ask since from what I've seen you guys know your stuff
Thanks
Vinnie

[mac214]

It might help if you were to list what the mods and goals for the car are.

I would go with a regular disc, especially if it is for the street. Without knowing the set-up, I will err on the side of the 2600, as it is a good clutch for a fairly wide range of power.

[eclipse92gsx]

Oh sorry mac, it's my first forum start. ok well he's hoping for some major power while still the ability to drive on the street. as of now we're working with a full cyclone engine with the big 16G turbo @ 20psi, an HKS air mass eliminator, 3 inch turbo back exhaust, and warblo 255lph hp fuel pump are the major mods. And we're getting the block .040" over with JE pistons I think... any advice is great not just about the clutch
thanks
vinnie

[hisandherturbo]

ACT 2600 with flywheel all the way!!!

[eclipse92gsx]

thanks! that's what we thought we just weren't sure because he was running an act 2600 with a 4 puck disc and didn't like how it engaged and it wore out fairly quick. is there another brand other than act with the same kind of holding power? or should we just change to a 6 puck or full disc.
Vinnie

[hisandherturbo]

full face organic. It's what I use and have for a couple years (same one) pulling 1.7 60's.

[Mirage]

It will really depend on what your goals are. But...

I have been abusing the hell out of my ACT 2600/organic disk combo for over a year doing almost nothing but drag launches. I have had nothing other than a 2600/street disk combos since I have owned the car (almost 7 years now).

This clutch managed me a 10.94@129.2x. I was also able to cut consistant 1.6x 60' times on street tires with a best of a 1.52 on overinflated slicks.

They seem to be a great universal clutch. Great pedal feedback too IMO.

Marcus

[eclipse92gsx]

alright well that settle's it then. thanks for the input guys! and of course the goals are there just waiting on money and time...

thanks
vinnie

[fusionsport]

I have seen the organics turn to "kitty hair" from repeated launches, and the sprung hub springs come loose and do bad things inside the clutch housing(pressure plate). I run an unsprung(solid) puck type disc with absolutely no issues on the street. It can get a little grabby when hot, but thats better than slipping when overheated. Kevin, Jacks brother, has about 15k or more miles on his unsprung puck style disc, which is identical to mine.

Two caveats: First, organic discs with sprung hubs transmit less "shock" to the hub since the organic disc is not as grabby as the mettalic/ceramic/feramic. The springs do not take quite the beating, and therefore less likely to come apart. It still happens though, so take nothing for granted. Second, the organics make a lot of heat, which they hate. Overheat an organic and it turns into kitty hair, it might come back enough to get you home, but dont count on it. Puck types love heat. Even if you overheat one to the point of slipping, and you still have a flywheel clutch surface or PP left, let it cool and it will come back. I have never overheated a puck type to the point of slipping though, even in 2 litre 911 Porsche Vintage cars, which have less torque than a lawn mower.

If you are going to launch the car repeatedly, and you are lookign at making decent power, then get a puck type and learn to drive it.

[Hal]

One additional point, unsprung plates also can contribute to the shearing of transmission shaft input splines.

I've seen it happen on GVR4's with 2600's and puck discs.

I usually don't suggest people run a puck disc on a daily driver.

Hal

[Anne]

And if he puts the ACT2600 in and daily drives it he'll have phenominal leg muscles on his left leg. I like the 2600, Mitch's car has it. I don't think I'd want to use it in my DD though, it's just too heavy for me.

[Steezy303]

I run the 2600 on my daily driver and its just fine. just my 2 cents

[eclipse92gsx]

well I guess we'd have to install an equal resistance on the gas pedal then so he'd have equal phenominal leg muscles... he had the 2600 with a sprung 4 puck before in it he didn't really mind the extra pressure for daily driving but then again it only lasted him a few months but that might just have been his driving habits... anyways I was out comparing prices and I saw an act 2900 is that new? I know we wouldn't need that much pressure just asking

[CU DSM]

Keep in mind that not all ACT2600s feel the same. Although they're the same product, for whatever reason, some feel heavier than others.

I like really grabby clutches though and wouldn't ever go with anything less than a 2600, but then again, my car is not a daily driver, and even if it was, I'd still be using at least a 2600.

However, if you drive in a lot of stop-and-go traffic, it can become tedious and tiring.

When it comes down to it, you've got to decide how much effort you want to exert to drive your car.

-Jonathan

[hisandherturbo]

big thing that helped me with my X-tra large left leg was when I replaced the factory clutch line with an upgraded steel one. Not sure if it makes as big of a difference on the 1G's though.

[eclipse92gsx]

nice we'll have to look into it I know the new tranny has some kind of accumulation tank inline before the slave cylinder... I'm not sure how that helps...

[Mirage]

It makes an even bigger difference.

The pedal assemblies in 1g's are typically worn to the point that everything needs to be adjusted to it's limit just to get semi-decent release.

It's usually a good to great idea to replace that line and shim the pivot ball with any 2600 or heavier clutch.

Marcus

[eclipse92gsx]

yeah I noticed that with the last 2600 he had I actually had to adjust everything all the wat out and shim the spring in the slave cylinder with washers just to get the thing to fully disengage

[98GSX]

i had the same probelm in a friend's tsi, we ended up having to replace the entire clutch pedal assembely...that wasn't very fun, he had launched in so many times at the drag strip that the pedal had actually work down the shaft...never seen anything like that before...

[Bryan Savage]

Just my $2, but I didn't have to adjust anything for my 2600. A couple good bleedings is all it took to get it working fine.

Oh, FYI, the factory torque specs for the pressure plate are not enough for a 2600. Add loctite and zap them with a 3/8" impact.

[AWD4G63T]

I run the 2600 with the street disc and my pivot ball was shimmed, I bled the crap out of the slave and I still had to adjust it all the way out. It disengages on the floor but at least it disengages! :D

Maybe a SS clutch line wouldn't be a bad idea!

[CU DSM]

Just my $2, but I didn't have to adjust anything for my 2600. A couple good bleedings is all it took to get it working fine.

Oh, FYI, the factory torque specs for the pressure plate are not enough for a 2600. Add loctite and zap them with a 3/8" impact.


You're lucky! Only a couple of bleedings and that was it?! We messed with my entire setup when the ACT2900 went in I don't know how many times before we got it to where we wanted it.

I wholeheartedly agree with using the Loctite, but I personally don't like using any impact wrench to install anything. Now taking things off with an impact wrench is another matter. An impact is just not accurate enough for my liking when installing things. Even if you want to set the torque setting tighter/higher on something (not always a good idea, as more things break from overtorqueing than undertorqueing), I'd highly recommend you still use a good torque wrench.

I meant to add this on my last post, but forgot. It's a link to RREs website talking about the same clutch in different cars and how much the pedal pressure varies from one to the next:
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/clutchpressure.htm

-Jonathan

[AWD4G63T]

And if he puts the ACT2600 in and daily drives it he'll have phenominal leg muscles on his left leg. I like the 2600, Mitch's car has it. I don't think I'd want to use it in my DD though, it's just too heavy for me.
Mine isn't too bad at all, I actually kind of like the pedal feel (even with it engaging right off of the floor) and I love the grab. However, it's really weird after I take my car out for a day then come back and take the wife's Lancer somewhere. The pedal feel is almost non-existent in the Lancer.

[AWD4G63T]

It makes an even bigger difference.

The pedal assemblies in 1g's are typically worn to the point that everything needs to be adjusted to it's limit just to get semi-decent release.

It's usually a good to great idea to replace that line and shim the pivot ball with any 2600 or heavier clutch.

Marcus
So the same does not apply for the 2g's as far as having to adjust everthing to it's limits? Did they just have a better pedal assembly?

[Mirage]

Be careful if you do this though.

These bolts, even though they are grade 7, will strip and pull threads fairly easily with enough force.

I wouldn't torque them anywhere beyond 24 ft/lbs. Even this may be way too high.

Marcus

[Bryan Savage]

You're lucky! Only a couple of bleedings and that was it?! We messed with my entire setup when the ACT2900 went in I don't know how many times before we got it to where we wanted it. Well, that would have been it, except for the bolt problem explained below.

I wholeheartedly agree with using the Loctite, but I personally don't like using any impact wrench to install anything. Now taking things off with an impact wrench is another matter. An impact is just not accurate enough for my liking when installing things. Even if you want to set the torque setting tighter/higher on something (not always a good idea, as more things break from overtorqueing than undertorqueing), I'd highly recommend you still use a good torque wrench. The first time I did the install, I used my torque wrench to tighten all the bolts in "star" sequence, in steps, down to factory service manual torque. I started having problems with disengagement within a week. Even with the pedal to the floor, the car would creep forwards when in first gear. The car would almost die if I held the brakes on as well. Driving became quite interesting to say the least.

I ended up pulling the tranny again only to find that every single bolt had loosened itself to less than finger-tight. Half of them were backed out three or four threads. Depressing the clutch pedal would simply pull the pressure plate off the flywheel instead of pulling the friction surface off the clutch disc.

A liberal application of Mopar Medium Strength Threadlocker (blue) and a quick couple zaps with my IR2115 3/8' impact gun and I haven't had a problem since. I don't enjoy installing things with an impact, but I also don't enjoy removing my transmission ten times until I figure out how tight something needs to be.

[erik]

I have gone threw about 3 act 2600s!! The latest pp and friction disc was only in for about 2000 miles and has about 1mm away from the closest rivet. So they work well for me as far as everything else, but wear.
I'm curious as to what the petal pressure difference you guys felt between the 2600 vs. the 2900? Is the step height the same for the flywheel? Any problems found with driving technique when using a lightened flywheel (11lbs)?
I just happen to have a 1st gear, and reverse engagement problem and so I took out the trans to insert a washer for the pivot ball just now. But as I was inspecting the clutch, I noticed things were wearing fine, it's just that the friction disc was wearing VERY FAST!
So on a weak moment, I ordered a new lightened flywheel from RRE and a scatter shield. But that was before I really took a closer look at the friction disc. Now I guess I need a new one of those as well.
So if the 2900 is not much different in hold power, then I might try to save money and just buy a new 2600 friction disc. Although I have my qualms about that. The existing PP looks good with no cracks and the friction disc has some miles left on it too. However, I just don't want to have to spend more than what is necessary and don't want to get back in there again anytime soon. That being said, I may HAVE to buy the new 2900. The car is doing some decent power now. (~450whp)
Please let me know your thoughts on this. I may have to place an order for a new clutch today, asap. If so where's the best pricing on one?
thx.
ew

[v413nc3]

There is absolutely no reason to run a 2900 if a 2600 is holding your power without slipping. The disc is still going to wear the same pretty much. Street discs were not meant for what we do to them :) You can try switching to a puck style but in the end I would say twin is the way you want to go if you want solid engagement with longer life.

[erik]

twin? Did you say you had one for sale a while back? Who makes them and where do you get one? I have never heard of anyone else speak of it for these cars accept you that I recal. I'd like to see/read about them, more. Sounds like a great idea. But I must have written that option off maybe because of the expense.
So where can I find more info on this?
ew

[sbiggi]

hmm, my act 2600 lasted 30K miles. I had over 100 passes at Bandimere.

1mm doesnt sound bad, they dont really have much material to begin with. I would think about a 6 puck, it should last alot longer.

[v413nc3]

In my opinion there are only three twins that are worth it, and exedy isn't on that list :)

Power Train Technologies (PTT) Hal and Dave both run these.
Quartermaster
Tilton

For the PTT I'm sure you can find a phone number, I don't happen to have one handy and they'll send you to a reseller for it.

For the Tilton (most expensive but by far the best) contact Titan motorsports. Jack at Titan should be able to get you all the info you will ever need :)

The QM is more of a bastardized kit. You'll want the 7.25 Vdrive clutch setup, rally style for the ford 4 cyl (same spline as ours) and a PTT flywheel/radius TB. You have to do a small amount of customization on the bolts that hold the pressure plate to the housing but it's not hard, takes about 20 minutes and costs about $30 in hardware.

Not sure what the PTT costs, the QM runs around $1000 all said and done. The tilton is probably $1500 for the street style and around $3500 for the carbon/carbon, which by far and away is the best clutch you will EVER use.

[v413nc3]

hmm, my act 2600 lasted 30K miles. I had over 100 passes at Bandimere.

1mm doesnt sound bad, they dont really have much material to begin with. I would think about a 6 puck, it should last alot longer.

My 2900 lasted 1200 miles and about 10-15 launches max. Of course it also did a few laps out at SCR but they weren't screaming fast laps. I was more interested in getting a feel for the car, but it's enough abuse on a street disc that it may have lead to heavy wear.