K, Clutches........ give it to me!

[hisandherturbo]

K, things are finally starting to come together, just a couple more things to take care of, then I will start to fix (get a new one, and balance etc.) my crank, and get a new clutch. I currently have a re-surfaced ACT Lightweight, USED 2600 PP and the 30mile UNsprung 6 puck. I don't think I want to use ANY of that. So, I am undecided if I want to go with the same set-up I just listed, or maybe a 2900 instead. So far I have found all new for $660. But I am so seriously thinking a TWIN of some sort. EXEDY? (ouch $1,500) or maybe JACK's Magic setup. Give me your advice. If you are new and don't know me and want to know my setup, last limp on only 28PSI made 505 @ MAC.

TY

JOE

[sbiggi]

If you want the best shifting possible, twin disc is the only way to go.

Since I couldnt afford that at the time I tried to go with the lightest disc possible. So I went with a ACT 4puck unsprung.

It honestly shifts better then any other combination of parts I've tried, but its still not fast enough. My 11.6 pass felt like I was waiting for the transmission on every single shift.

I have 23 timeslips from this setup so far, and its holding up to the 50trim at 29 psi and the 100 shot. Should be around 430 wtq (uncorrected)

[biglady112]

Quartermaster. That is all I need to say. OK something else. PTT.

Steven

[v413nc3]

QM Rally Twin, nuff said :)

[hisandherturbo]

OK, you 2 quarter mater kings........ I can't find anything. Found one site that had single ones for our car, but nothing twin.

[biglady112]

http://www.devotuning.com/dsm2g/dsm2g-drivetrain.html

[v413nc3]

We end up saving $300 and just ordering them ourselves. $400ish for the flywheels (they recently went up in price) and $600 for the clutch. Call me if you want information on it.

[hisandherturbo]

K, ty......... I would just also like some specs on it too, but NOW, my question is, at twice the price of a new 2600 (or 2900) new 6 puck unsprung and new streetlite flywheel, is the twin disk really worth TWICE the price? I mean will it last at least twice as long? I don't have an issue with engagement at all.

[Mirage]

Personally, in my opinion, the twin is worth it's weight in gold.

I'm the master of making stock parts work. Since I went to the twin, I still need to relearn to drive the car, but it's worlds better than any single disk setup I've ever driven.

No matter how much power you're making, it WILL clamp and do it happily.

Nuff said.

Marcus

[v413nc3]

And it takes massive abuse. As long as you don't warp the flywheel it will keep clamping.

[Jack(IAT)]

And it takes massive abuse. As long as you don't warp the flywheel it will keep clamping.

That's why the Tilton units my brother and I are making will be better.

We are using the Nascar Tilton units with the DSM Tilton 7.25" disks and machining the factory FW to fit the basket assembly. It's cheap, plus we made a piece that can be replaced on the FW, so you never warp or wear out the FW itself. The unit is 100% serviceable, unlike the QM units.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l251/GVR4_1670/DSC02389.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l251/GVR4_1670/DSC02390.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l251/GVR4_1670/DSC02391.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l251/GVR4_1670/DSC02392.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l251/GVR4_1670/DSC02393.jpg

We are not making them available just yet. Need more testing to be sure it all works okay...

Jack

[v413nc3]

The QM are 100% serviceable. The flywheels are light chromo because of the low MOI. Using the stock flywheel eliminates that advantage. And you can still warp the floaters, using a larger heat sink isn't always the best way to do it if the rest isn't up to par with how much the FW takes.

[jmakado]

Any idea on pricing for yours Jack? I havn't driven my car for over a month now but it was just starting to slip before I left. Twin would be nice but I know they are a bear for somewhat DD duty. I wouldn't be driving the car everyday but I don't want it to be a huge PITA on the street either.

[Hal]

My PTT is "streetable" once you get used to it, so I wouldn't discount a twin for that reason.

Hal

[Mirage]

Honestly, I loved my twin for the daily duties.

It took a little bit to give it a glaze to not make it such a "light switch", but once it bedded in, it was awesome.

Marcus

[Jack(IAT)]

The QM are 100% serviceable. The flywheels are light chromo because of the low MOI. Using the stock flywheel eliminates that advantage. And you can still warp the floaters, using a larger heat sink isn't always the best way to do it if the rest isn't up to par with how much the FW takes.

If the FW needs to be replaced and has no removable parts, I wouldn't say that's 100% serviceable. I would rather replace a plate bolted to the FW than spend $400 on a whole new FW. This FW is pretty darn light, and the disks are far lighter than the QM units. This clutch should shift faster than the QM and be easier to learn on as far as price goes. You burn this thing up and it's $130 for a replacement basket, less than $200 for the disks, and around $50 for the new FW sleeve.

Jack

[Jack(IAT)]

Any idea on pricing for yours Jack? I havn't driven my car for over a month now but it was just starting to slip before I left. Twin would be nice but I know they are a bear for somewhat DD duty. I wouldn't be driving the car everyday but I don't want it to be a huge PITA on the street either.

It's not bad driving on a twin disk at all really. We might start selling these for around $600ish if it all works like it's supposed to...

Jack

[hisandherturbo]

My PTT is "streetable" once you get used to it, so I wouldn't discount a twin for that reason.

Hal


OK, I have to ask, your the second one who used "PTT"....... Push To Talk?

[v413nc3]

Powertrain Technologies. It's a QM copy. Quite good piece. And if you're too stupid to not build heat up on your flywheel you deserve to warp it and replace it. You can get thin QM discs, for the doubles I like the thick rally's. For the triples I like the thinner ones with thicker floaters. I like the low MOI so I like the Chromo flywheel.

[Jack(IAT)]

Uh, you do know that the way the OEM FW sits has a lower MOI than the QM, right? Have you seen a QM FW??

Jack

[v413nc3]

I have one. And I seriously doubt that. The OEM weighs more, and has the same diameter. That basically tells me that the moment of inertia cannot be lower.

[sbiggi]

We are using the Nascar Tilton units with the DSM Tilton 7.25" disks and machining the factory FW to fit the basket assembly.

We are not making them available just yet. Need more testing to be sure it all works okay...

Jack

So you are machining that factory cast flywheel down for that?

If thats the case, thats really to bad because thats not legal for drag racing for anyone who would actually need a twin disc setup.

"2:5 Flywheel
The use of a stock-type cast-iron flywheels and/or pressure plates prohibited in any car running 11.99 or quicker. Units meeting SFI Spec 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, or 1.4 mandatory in all cars running 11.99 or quicker"

[hisandherturbo]

Speaking of SFI ratings...... When I used to get nothing but ACT, they always advertise and say it on their parts 1.1, Looking at these different twins, I have not noticed any of them talking about that? Am I missing something here? Or is it just "understood" that they are?

[jonvr4]

Jack, are you worried that the stock flywheels could explode? I am sure that they are not nearly as strong or safe as an aftermarket flywheel wheel.

[v413nc3]

The Tilton, and QM are both used heavily in SFI and FIA approved vehicles.

[v413nc3]

Other than it shouldn't be used like that. If it's machined down you weaken it, bad enough with a single disc clutch but with a twin it will exacerbate the cracking issues as noted by RRE and could lead to catastrophic failure. Saving money isn't worth potetially crashing your vehicle at high speeds.

[jonvr4]

Harry Blanchard of three speed is part of galantvr4.org, and has posted pics of a stock flywheel that destoyed a dsm. I would def. not be using stock, but would maybe think of doing it with maybe an ACT.

[sbiggi]

Are you serious ? They dont ask about your flywheel, and if they do just tell them its a tilton flywheel, that is so not an issue.

Yes, as a matter of fact the last two times they asked me for the sfi numbers, and they told me if I cant go faster then 11.50 becasue I dont have metal valve stems.

[jonvr4]

I would assume this was at bandi right? I am pretty sure the guys at PMI couldn't care less....

[v413nc3]

PMI is about a hoakey track as it is anyway.

[jonvr4]

I agree Jake. I take their times as a grain of salt, not to take anything away from the guys who have fast #s there. I would like to see you CO. Springs guys go to bandi, and compare!

[hisandherturbo]

I do! I get better times at Bandi!........... of course you already knew that!

[Jack(IAT)]

Jack, are you worried that the stock flywheels could explode? I am sure that they are not nearly as strong or safe as an aftermarket flywheel wheel.

No, they won't explode. We can use the aluminum, or even the ACT flywheels too if it makes you feel better. Anyone that says these will explode didn't look at the picture and don't know what they are talking about. If you 'look' at the pics, the FW was lightened on the outside, which makes the FW safer. It has to do with simple centrifugal force. The less mass you have on the outside, the less force, so the less likely it will come apart (big duh). It is so simple I'm suprised all the guys that know everything about everything in here don't know that. It is totally stupid to believe that these FWs that we machine will have more of a chance of breaking than the ones that have several pounds more.

Jack

[Jack(IAT)]

I agree Jake. I take their times as a grain of salt, not to take anything away from the guys who have fast #s there. I would like to see you CO. Springs guys go to bandi, and compare!

Yeah, he would get low 13s instead of high 13s. Oh boy! Watch out!

Jack

[jonvr4]

what's with the smart remarks jack? I was simply asking if the flywheel becomes weakend by the loss of meterials. I also am stating that I have heard from numerous people that have run at PMI they have run upto .250 different at bandi. I am not saying that PMI is wrong, I am saying they have notice differances. I also Know it could be attributed to driving, but these were pretty constant drivers who have told me this.

[v413nc3]

No, they won't explode. We can use the aluminum, or even the ACT flywheels too if it makes you feel better. Anyone that says these will explode didn't look at the picture and don't know what they are talking about. If you 'look' at the pics, the FW was lightened on the outside, which makes the FW safer. It has to do with simple centrifugal force. The less mass you have on the outside, the less force, so the less likely it will come apart (big duh). It is so simple I'm suprised all the guys that know everything about everything in here don't know that. It is totally stupid to believe that these FWs that we machine will have more of a chance of breaking than the ones that have several pounds more.

Jack


Uhm, there's no such thing as centrifugal force? There's centrifugal action, but what you describe as centrifugal force is just Newton's laws in motion. That's basic physics 101. http://regentsprep.org/Regents/physics/phys06/bcentrif/centrif.htm
Now metalurgy 101, Cast iron is hardened before being used in our flywheels, Machining said cast iron piece removes the hardened areas and leaves nice soft cast iron, this leads to issues. RRE has already proven this back when they first machined them years upon years ago. Oh and yet again, greater MOI ruining 1/2 the greatness that is the 7.25 setup. They're not and never will be FIA or SFI legal, and there is a reason for it. The harmonic resonance of iron is bad and can lead to failure, often catostrophic failure. In the end, saving a few bucks is not worth having an item that is by all acounts of every expert in the field of flywheels and clutches a bad idea. I'm sure the penny pinchers appreciate the work you're doing Jack, but for my money, Chrome Moly is the way to go.

[v413nc3]

Yeah, he would get low 13s instead of high 13s. Oh boy! Watch out!

Jack


I've never run 13's at PMI. I ran a 12.7 at 22psi with the new MBC. And I ran a 12.6 when I blew my turbo, with a 130something in the 1/8th the next pass coasting in.

[sbiggi]

No, they won't explode. We can use the aluminum, or even the ACT flywheels too if it makes you feel better.
Jack

Wonder how much trouble it would be to have it recertified or whatever so it still retains the SFI approval? Just food for thought.

I wouldnt mind trying one of those if you want to beta test my ACT flywheel :D

[jonvr4]

Have you seen these pics jack? I think harry is the one that posted while advertising his SSSS. Anyways take a peek, as this is a stock flywheel.

[Jack(IAT)]

You're alright, but others are just frustrating to deal with, because they seem to act like we don't know what we are doing. People wonder why I rarely ever post in this forum anymore. Anyone that seems to have the cool equipment that can make their own parts to benefit others always seem to get bashed in here. You know what I'm talking about in the IC thread. Doesn't that suck??

Jack

[Jack(IAT)]

I've never run 13's at PMI. I ran a 12.7 at 22psi with the new MBC. And I ran a 12.6 when I blew my turbo, with a 130something in the 1/8th the next pass coasting in.

That's BS. Where's the time slip?? I want to see the 130 in the 1/8th.

Jack

[jonvr4]

You're alright, but others are just frustrating to deal with, because they seem to act like we don't know what we are doing. People wonder why I rarely ever post in this forum anymore. Anyone that seems to have the cool equipment that can make their own parts to benefit others always seem to get bashed in here. You know what I'm talking about in the IC thread. Doesn't that suck??





Yes, that is pretty much bullshit. I have no reason to bash, esp in this thread. I just simply stated a fact, and asked what you thought about that, and if it applied to your product.

[v413nc3]

I'm only asking for justification for using an inferior piece of equipment in what should be regarded as a superior upgrade. That's all. You're defensive instead of intuitive. Explain why so that people can make an educated choice in purchasing your solution. Define all the facts, and don't take it so damn personally.

[Jack(IAT)]

Have you seen these pics jack? I think harry is the one that posted while advertising his SSSS. Anyways take a peek, as this is a stock flywheel.

Uh, Outlaw had that happen to him on a completely stock FW, stock clutch, 97 GS-T. I don't think you understand why they break. Yes, a stock FW can break very easily, which is why Mits recommends replacing the FW at every clutch change.

Jack

[jonvr4]

Uh, Outlaw had that happen to him on a completely stock FW, stock clutch, 97 GS-T. I don't think you understand why they break. Yes, a stock FW can break very easily, which is why Mits recommends replacing the FW at every clutch change.

Jack

I had no idea that he broke a flywheel. My brother had a stock pressure plate come apart on him, but we caught it in time before it grenaded. Now I do understand the fact that you could very easily damage the stock flywheel and put stress cracks by just getting it too hot, and obvious stress due to abuse.

[v413nc3]

That's BS. Where's the time slip?? I want to see the 130 in the 1/8th.

Jack


Then come on over and look through my time slips. I'm not here to defend what I've done in the gay racing sport known as Drag. I'm here to state that using a cast iron flywheel is shit and should NOT be used with a 7.25 clutch especially after it's been machined, especially if it's not re-hardened.

[jonvr4]

Yeah my brothers car is pretty basic too. The pressure plate came out in about 5-6 pieces.

[v413nc3]

You know it might help if I actually read what I typed. 120 in the 1/8. According to the all mightly PMI systems. That was on 49PSI with a 150shot of Nitrous and 80PSI of LPh. And the turbo blew like a big dog, snapped the shaft in two. Now how about we get back on topic with the clutch and if you want the slip come take a look at it.

Oh and Shep runs high 140's in the 1/8th.

[Jack(IAT)]

Then come on over and look through my time slips. I'm not here to defend what I've done in the gay racing sport known as Drag. I'm here to state that using a cast iron flywheel is shit and should NOT be used with a 7.25 clutch especially after it's been machined, especially if it's not re-hardened.

I'm not going all the way up there for that, and you know that. Scan it or take a pic of it.

edit: oh, now it's 120? lol!

Using a cast FW is not shit, and you obviously have no clue what you are talking about. How long have you been machining parts for? My friend has been doing it for a very long time, and some of the cars he has done this for sit at 9K RPM all day at the track and no issues for season after season.

Jack

[v413nc3]

No, it's called a typographical error without proof reading.

And why are there no cast iron flywheels that are SFI/FIA? Hmm... Build what you want, sell what you want. Those are the facts. I don't need to machine parts to know what Safety experts say about it.

[Mirage]

Closing thread for the sake of the rest of the DSM Community.

Marcus