ported 2g head

[hoffman]

i've tryed to find as much as possible in the arcives(dsm.org) on what all consists in porting a head. well the search didn't take to long, or maybe i just didn't look in the right places. i understand why you you want to do this. does this also consist of porting or replacing the intake mani.? please list a site that goes over porting the head, parts, DIYS, etc.

thanks much

[GSXMonster]

I dont know of any sites specifically that cover porting, but I had my 2G head ported, and I just had them port match it to a 1G intake manifold gasket, and then aquired a 1G intake mani. as well... You wouldnt want to try and port a stock 2G intake manifold, unless you go extrude hone, and then its pretty much a waste becuase you could have just bolted on a bigger 1G... But I guess if you autocross, the thin 2G runners would give a nice throttle response and better bottom end.....
Rob

[DlandryTSI]

IMO I'd just do the 1g intake mani with a 1g head swap. Saves a lot of hassle with port work.

--Dave

[Hal]

Porting cylinder heads is close to an art. Grabbing a die grinder and going at it is NOT the way to do it.

How much material you remove (or add), where you do it, and how the transitions are done all play into how well it flows.

Unless you are building a 10 second car, I wouldn't bother porting the head... period.

A 1g head swap is a FAR better bang for the buck and you can EASILY do it in an afternoon.

Hal

[GSXMonster]

About the head swap in an afternoon... make sure you have all the parts needed to do it, and if you plan on doing it to a '95 or a '96 you better get the Camshaft Position Sensor clip from a junkyard first (providing your swapping to a 97+ CAS and not doing the RRE method).
Rob

[John R-]

I agree with Hal on this one, If you port the 2G head and don't like it, there's no turning back! By choosing a swap instead, you can always keep you're old parts. If satisified, you can sell them and recouperate some of you're out of pocket cost. Here's a basic breakdown of the two. Anyone chime in here if I've missed something as I'm just getting ready to do this myself.

2G head route...
$1000 poting done right!
$ 100 1G intake manifold
$ 150 1G throttle body
$ new head studs???
$ new gaskets???


1G head route...
$ 400 good condition 1G head
$ 100 1G intake manifold
$ 150 1G throttle body
$ 150 1G CAS
$ 100 1G front water pipe and thermostat housing (neck)
$ 50 1G lower radiator hose
$ new head studs???
$ new gaskets???
-$ 200 sell 2G head
-$ 50 sell 2G intake manifold
-$ 50 sell 2G TB w/o sensors

As you can see the 1G head swap *can* come out cheeper than porting a 2G head depending upon if you need any extras & can sell off some parts. Worst case is they would be about equal in cost. The labor is pretty much equal effort but in very different ways. Choose you mods accordingly:)

[GSXMonster]

Dude, I dont know who does your portwork, but it should never cost $1000! Its usually a labor rate such as $45 and hour or so... I know when I got my head ported it only cost $250, and YES it was done right. Laniers speed shop here in Colorado Springs did it, and they have been around near 40 years. He owned and operated a 4 sec. Jet car, and numerous sub 9 second drag cars.... Grant it, All of them were V8's, but the dynamics of porting would stay the same....
Rob

[hoffman]

basically my concern was upgrading to a MF1 L3 turbo(mutt 3, ETA32, same damn thing), i wan't to make sure that i wasn't wasting any of the properties that a big turbo can offer. i know alot of people do a 1g head swap, but i wasn't sure if just porting a 2g head wouldn't be more porductive. i want the engine to "eat" as much air as it can.

[Van]

I did some research on this not too long ago, just because... I do things like that. This is what I could determine on this subject from lots of research at various boards...

Do the 1g intake along with the 1G head. And *I* would EH the 1G intake as well. IMHO, up here at altitude every little bit helps. I'd also do the Magnus MotorSports 1G CAS swap too. And just get the "street" port and polish job on the 1G head.

I've seen a few posts about the 2G head actually being ok, but the 2G intake just being too small. You'll have to remove alot of 2G head port material to match up the 1G intake with the 2G head ports.

[John R-]

Originally posted by GSXMonster
Dude, I dont know who does your portwork, but it should never cost $1000

Actually nobody does my port work as I'm not at a stage that it would be worth my money, A 1G head sawp alone should more than suffice for now.

I'm well aware of the fact that many places can & will do porting for less. Many will claim that they know what their doing but don't! If you found a place that does nice work then cool! Let others know, I'm all for praising the places that provide excellent work & service.

As for the $1000 price, I'm simply throwing out a round-a-bout price. As for myself, I wouldn't have a DSM head ported unless it was by www.ffwdconnection.com (who has their machine work done by Jackson Machine or something or rather in Oklahoma). This is the same company who does Glasiers head as well as a few other big shot DSMer's. I've seen their work and it's TOP NOTCH, Darren King is a great guy who refuses to cut corners and will tell you if it's something beyond the scope of his knowledge. Ask John Salmi or Dan Harris about it, they've both had experience with their head work as well. But to each is own... it's nice to have more than one choice:)

[GSXMonster]

As for the $1000 price, I'm simply throwing out a round-a-bout price. As for myself, I wouldn't have a DSM head ported unless it was by ffwdconnection.com (who has their machine work done by Jackson Machine or something or rather in Oklahoma). This is the same company who does Glasiers head as well as a few other big shot DSMer's. I've seen their work and it's TOP NOTCH, Darren King is a great guy who refuses to cut corners and will tell you if it's something beyond the scope of his knowledge.

I know all about Darren King and FFWDConnection. I own one of their Stage IV cylinder heads. When my cam gear slipped and I mashed all the valves and broke 14 valve guides, I called Darren. He told me they use special valve guides that only they can get and insisted on me sending him the head back so they could charge me $800 to repair it. I spoke with Lanier and he called Ferrea valves, ordered me the valves at cost $117 per set of 8 valves, found the brass guides (first I brought him the stock guides that I got from mitsubishi, and after they didnt fit told me he could get me the ones I needed) and repaired the head for under $500... All done locally. Dont get me wrong, FFWD does great work, but when he told me it needed special guides that only they could get, and insisted on my sending them the cylinder head, I was kinda turned off...
Rob

[John R-]

Originally posted by GSXMonster


I know all about Darren King and FFWDConnection. I own one of their Stage IV cylinder heads.

That's right! You beat me to it when Salmi was selling it. I sooo wanted it, not that I need it yet:(


Dont get me wrong, FFWD does great work, but when he told me it needed special guides that only they could get, and insisted on my sending them the cylinder head, I was kinda turned off...
Rob

Bummer what happened. Really! That's the kind of luck I usually have? In retrospect I'm glad I didn't get it even though it was a great deal. My money was better spent on other much needed stuff.

Get that beast runnin' already! I'm sure someone in the club would be glad to drive...while you get shotgun:D

[hoffman]

so i'm taking it that the general agreement from most of you is to just do a 1G head swap with a 1g ported intake mani.

i don't think rob will ever let someone drive the monster. of course theres a chance my project car will be done before his.:p

[BoostedGS]

I'm pretty sure I'll be able to talk Rob into letting me drive the beast. Whadda ya think Rob? Can I take it for a spin....around the block....down the street....in the driveway...can I sit in the driver's seat and start it????? :D

Patrick

[DlandryTSI]

I know mine will be done before Robs ever starts :D .

--Dave

[GSXMonster]

I know mine will be done before Robs ever starts.

Hey, Dave, I already beat you to that because it DID start! Like four months ago before the Timing gear slipped... So there! ;P


i don't think rob will ever let someone drive the monster. of course theres a chance my project car will be done before his.

Sure, ANYBODY can drive it... ahem... with a simple deposit of $20,000... cashiers check please... :) or cash... :)


I'm pretty sure I'll be able to talk Rob into letting me drive the beast. Whadda ya think Rob? Can I take it for a spin....around the block....down the street....in the driveway...can I sit in the driver's seat and start it?????

Lets see here.... no... no... no... yes. :)


Get that beast runnin' already! I'm sure someone in the club would be glad to drive...while you get shotgun

That may just have to happen... I might be able to get my license back Feb. 2nd... keeping my fingers crossed...
Rob

[John R-]

Originally posted by hoffmangst
so i'm taking it that the general agreement from most of you is to just do a 1G head swap with a 1g ported intake mani.

I think a street port on a 1G head is what was recomended? Just a plain stock 1G head w/o porting is still a big improvement.

Remember, port work or a head swap isn't always needed? It's all based upon what you're goals are for the car, current mods are, & how well it's performing? Greg Doyle's '95 talon ran a high 12 (mid 12 w/ nitrous) on a 2G head and a small 16G no less! Alot of it can come down to having a TOTAL setup that each part is optimized for one another. Tunning plays a major role as well.

I by no means am an expert in this area, but I've done alot of homework to decide what was best for MY project. I'm just sharing my findings , hope it helps :cool:

[DlandryTSI]

Its all about how you get the car to its goal. I struggled to get the car to even hit a high 13 with the 18G. Well its been shown that with a big turbo and bad blowby my car was capable of running a mid 12. I was surprised when I pulled it all apart thats for sure.

John I would watch out if I were you. Those rods are not going to take a lot of HP. You might be able to crack a low 13 on stock rods but I believe thats all they will take before they snap. Hal do you want to comment on this?

--Dave

[John R-]

Originally posted by DlandryTSI
John I would watch out if I were you. Those rods are not going to take a lot of HP. You might be able to crack a low 13 on stock rods but I believe thats all they will take before they snap. Hal do you want to comment on this?

--Dave

I guess this probably should get moved to a new thread as it doesn't have much to do with head swaps and stuff...oh Dave....

There's always two sides to a story? I've read the stories of those who've thrown a rod here & there, including Hal. But that's almost like saying all 2G's are going to have a walking crank? It's just too random.... too many setup types, racing styles, etc. to be so concrete.

There are lots of people who have/are running 12's on stock 2G rods yet alone the stock 1G big rods I'll be using in my 1G 6bolt block. See proof here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSM1gina2g/.

I spoke with Darren King at FFWD Connectioin & Robert Garcia at RRE several times on this topic. They state that the 1G big rods are good up to about 380-400hp. I went ahead and had them shot peened & then cryo frozen for some cheep added insurance. I'm confident it was done right as well because RRE uses the same machine shop that Rod Millen does!

Despite all I've done, it's still a gamble; but I'm not too worried that my 16G will push it *too* hard. Besides I'm not looking to break records. A low 13 this upcomming season will do me fine ...for now:cool: I need to learn how to tune the car correctly, fix all the minor problems, & avoid walking cranks before I'll even start thinking about a bigger turbo!

Hey... I *used* to have some kick ass forged JUN pistons and rods in my last motor. Trust me, I would LOVE to still use them but now that I'm switching to a 6 bolt motor for crankwalk protection, they wont fit on the different crank:( My budget right now is very tight so I had to go the budget route. They are still for sale though, I just cleaned them up and will be posting pictures soon:D If interested just let me know, they're a steal!