emmitions problem

[erik]

one would think that if your car can't pass emmitions in this state under the HC (hydrocarbons) that the car is running too rich and we can assume that the car is modified and it's to be expected. Or the other thought is that it's got to be plugs, gas or any related things to cause a bad running car. If this was the case then i'd usually have a bad idel or miss during accelleration. That's not the case. Or if i lean it out (on the s-afc) to a factor of -15% (concidering the car's setup) that it would clear up the problem. That may be so. But i'm a lil hesatent to just try that before spending another 25bux for a set of tests. ... So i ordered a new set Accell 300+ wires and new bpr7es and will attempt it with 85oct. as well and see if that clears it up. If it doesn't, then it will prob. be the mas or something else. ... I will reply with my results. .. As not only i want it to pass; but i want it to run a better mix so as to reap better performance. ... I'm concidering to use that emmitions "Gaurenteed to pass emmitions" in a bottle from the local auto shop as well.
erik

[V8SpankR]

My car is still on the stock injectors but we do have a similar setup (no front mount though) and mine did pass emmissions with the cat in place. It came close with a test pipe in place but my HZ went over. All I did was turn my boost down to about 9psi and leaned down my AFC and it was fine.

[Hal]

Use BPRrES, not 7's

You get a better burn with 6's because they will be hot enough to self clean, where the 7's will load up and cause a miss.

Use low octane... the lower the better. It's more volitile, so more of it burns.

My car passed by a WIDE margin with no changes in tuning... just crap gas and a cat.

Hal

[DlandryTSI]

aaahh. yeah. that was what i meant anyway. Bpr6es's. And Since I am not able to get it tested this monday, I got the emmitions "Garueneteed to pass" bottle to burn in it before then ,also. I can post the test results later if interested.
erik

[BatmanGSX]

Carmen P. ran the "Guaranteed to pass" stuff in his car. It passed. It boggles my mind. He has 550s, a hacked MAS and no AFC (his got fried). Everything *should* be totally out of whack. Combine that with the 90 compression in every hole and it shouldn't even be possible for it to pass. We couldn't get it to pass back when the AFC worked. I don't know what's in that bottle.

Erik, you for sure need to run the stuff and then turn your AFC down to about -15% across on low throttle. Then set the throttle crossover points to like 65% and 90% to make sure that the jerk emissions people are running within the -15% correction.

[erik]

I am overlooking something obvious maybe. But then again. Here's the scoop...
I drove one tank of injector cleaner dry, then the 'gauranteed to pass' in a bottle, thru fully. Then, I dropped in about 6 gal of 85oct. and turned the afc down to -15% across the board with low being at 75% throttle I think and 80% for the high. The high throttle values at -9up to 0% at 5000rpm. I know the car was no higher than 3600rpm since I was allowed to ride AND datalog the car during this last attempt.
I put in new ngk6's in gapped at .29. Even though the car was driven about 40mi. I allowed it to cool down a li (2 hrs) before I got a chance to drive 5mi to the emmitions place. The thermostat read full warm. and the exh. temp felt noticeably hotter than last time tested. I turned down the boost as low as my controller would allow to 12psi. We never used the BOV and the boost only once went to no higher than 10spi.
The damn car is progressively getting worse 1st, 2nd, 3rd attempts respectively. In the HC - 3.8, 6.0, 6.68 and the limit is 2.5. The CO2's are 378.4, 390.0, 400.37 I don't know the limit. The NOx is 5.59, 5.77, 5.67 to pass is 6.0 so it's close. It's only the CO's that are getting a lil better 17.0, 15.3, 8.36 and the limit is 20 units.
I collected allot of data during this run. It's a 30.4kb TMO file if anyone wants to view it. The only course of action for me is to put new plugwires on, attach the crankcase breather back to the intake and replace my O2sensor. and set the afc to even a lower setting with the high thrott. being full -15% as well. I did notice the afc MIGHT have interpolated to the high thrott. position at the point when the driver gave it 89% throttle. But again we never went higher than 3600rpm's.
erik

[DlandryTSI]

Ok here is your problem. Your TPS settings are set lower than what the driver was keeping them at. So to compensate make both the high and low maps the same. Now reguardless if they kept it below 5000rpms you should have a flat map going from 0-8000. You can always reset it later after the test.

--Dave

[BatmanGSX]

Something isn't right. Do you have 550s? What MAS? You have a cat right?

Next step is to take it to a different place.

[erik]

Your right Josh. I do think sometings wrong. lol. I will take your recomendation Dave although, what I've gone thru lately, I tend to doubt wether that, solely, will solve it .
I have a non hacked 2g MAS with the S_AFC and a cat, 550's. I have tried 1st w/o a cat but the 2nd test showed no real improvement with it on. (refer to my last post) and the 2nd and 3rd time tried was at a different place. All three had different drivers. And this issue is getting worse NOT better.
I have no extra manuel engine managment control other than the afc.

[BatmanGSX]

Are you making sure the cat is super hot before the testing? Maybe you have a bad cat. It's a shame the only way to tell would be to borrow another cat and pay for the test again.

With a 2G MAS and -15% on 550s you should be very lean which is why we are confused.

My only other thoughts is the oil. If you are burning oil it's going to add to the HC count. You may want to try changing the oil and moving to heavier weight. How many miles do you have on the current oil? Are you consuming much oil?

[erik]

... How many miles do you have on the current oil? Are you consuming much oil? [/B]
Yes, I am buring oil and I've tried to use Valvoline 10-50 but it increases the oil preassure and causes an oil leak somewhere as well. So I'm sticking with Valvoline Durablend. For now I've got Valv. MaxLife in with the B/G oil additive to thicken it up and condition it a lil. The oil is new and full. I do have an ehx. leak between the cat and pipes on both ends where the flanges are. I don't know how the muff. shop managed to do it, but the flanges are not squared. (as if the metal curled) and the surface is not flat against the pipes. That may cause a lil leak and thus not heat up the cat as fast, but the cat was HOT when I tested it because the exhaust was very hot to the touch right after the tail pipe. I had practiced taking older cars to test them when i worked at a dealership. And I'd usually just drive the car on the highway going 55mph for 20min. to heat it up before takeing it to the test. That might have helped the tests then. And even though I didn't do that this time, It was close in the amt. of driveing I did to heat it up enough.
I was wondering if I smell gas in the oil -what does that usually mean? I know I am burning some as well.
erik

[Hal]

gas in the oil... big trouble

usually a leaking injector... but could be badly worn rings

Hal

[erik]

How would one know? How would it get in the oil? . Rings. I might agree with you the car has been driven hard most of it's life. But I haven't tried a compression test yet. Don't you need two people to try that? I got a new compression test gauge but haven't used it yet.

[erik]

dry from left to right as it stands.
119 119 115 118
wet is...
135 130 130 131 as far as I can tell.

The oil smelled like fuel a lil and the car blows some kind of smoke when under boost and high rpms. I wonder if I have a valve issue as well?

[erik]

The fourth attempt to emmitions test was a failure as well. ... I was never any good at tests of any form. :P.
I have never felt more wanting to part off my car and be done with this crap than ever before. I'm tired of this!
I was at 2.8429 on the HC's. That's .3429 higher than the limit. And the car was worked on today. I did...
I put in the original-factory, fuel pump in and brand new plug wires and noticed a lil leak from the, once capped, nipple from were the crank case breather hose would go. So I rejoined that to the carnk case and kept the filter in line. And put a half a tank of 85oct. in. I also drove the car for ~25min to warm it up COMPLETELY.
When I got there, I turned all the High/low setting on the S-AFC to -18% and had only one car in front of me before the car had a chance to cool off.
The only good thing that came of it was the CO's. They went down to 3.7814 from the last high of 15.xxx. But failed just in the HC's.
The car was hot and missing more often afterwards. And had a fast idel (1400rpms) and particularly at 3000+rpm during accelleration it was missing. So i know it was burning way lean still. So maybe it is a coil issue. .. When the car is cold It still misses a lil. But when it is hot it's worse.

[erik]

I need to see if next time the switching my rewire mod back to the factory wireing and 450cc injectors alone would help.
Although I think it could likely help enough to just squeek by and pass, somehow I have my doubts wether it would really make a larger difference. I still think it could be the ignition, cuz it skips.
We need a 'Car Tuner' section.
I would hate to have to think in order to have the car fully "tuned", that it must go back to the stock position only to get that way and pass. After all, what would "tuning" and "performance" mean to us if it wasn't tuned and not burning rich and other crap correctly out of the tail pipe. Right?

[Van]

Now I see why you are so lean, the 550's and 2g mas are very close. I can't imagine you needing to be anywhere near -15% or
-18% for normal closed-loop operation. Maybe -10% at most, depending on your fuel pump and pressure regulator set-up.

I see that you kept getting worse until this last time. Have you kept track of every s-afc setting you had for every test? I see you've now changed the fuel pump. Which pump was in there?

Now for that trick question... Are you changing your oil before you go? When the oil gets a little gas soaked, it'll give HC readings all by itself, hehe.

[erik]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Van
[B]Now I see why you are so lean, the 550's and 2g mas are very close. I can't imagine you needing to be anywhere near -15% or
-18% for normal closed-loop operation. Maybe -10% at most, depending on your fuel pump and pressure regulator set-up.

---I set it for a leaner than lean amt. that ironically gave me a better test result the 4th (last) run. I was also using a ND aftermarket fuel pump and I replaced that with my original (stock) FP for the last run as well. Was the standard ND upgrade have a rating of 75gph and the Walbro has like 255 Lph. In which case the Walbro has a slightly higher rating vs the ND.
--- My oil was replaced with new stuff about 2 weeks before the 1st test. But now I smell more gas in the oil. But maybe it's the oil additive that smells like gas. It's the BG additive stuff. Maybe I should change it once more and just put in the oil. The stuff i'm using is Valv. Max life 10-30.

[DSMxTSi]

Mail your old registration to someone in a state where there are no emissions. Have them get you some plates.

Like Cody and I did for the '90. We went to Iowa with the old expired registration, said we moved to Iowa (used his friend's address) and said we needed new plates. No emissions, no inspection and cost $27. We were in and out of there in 5 minutes.

If you fail again, maybe you should consider doing that too :D

Jenni

[Van]

Originally posted by erik
I was also using a ND aftermarket fuel pump and I replaced that with my original FP for the last run as well. Was the standard ND upgrade have a rating of 75gph and the Walbro has like 255 Lph. In which case the Walbro has a slightly higher rating vs the ND.

I actually believe that the pump change was the real reason you did better. Hard to say. Do you have a fp gauge?

Another thing showing the pump/afpr relationship would be if your s-afc settings were funny in the Lo side in relation to your fuel trims. But it kinda sounds like you don't really pay attention to your fuel trims? I don't know... Have you kept a record of all of your s-afc settings for each test? It should be alot easier than this.

[erik]

I did a few things since. But overall I think it could be better.... I logged the info when the guy tested my car on the rollers. He had to drive thru the test 3 times in succession to get it to pass.
This time I had the car with nothing but 85oct in, the EGR blockoff plate removed the week prior, some carb cleaner injected in the intake were the PCV valve was connected to and the car's gas cap backed out almost completely for the run.
I also had the car at +10% RICH across the board for low and high throt. And the 2nd and 3rd runs, I leaned it out a lil to +7% across, during those runs.
I also think since the guy didn't ever buck the car during excel and decel that he drove it more steadily and therefore didn't have to use more throttle than was necessary in the first place. If he would have used more throttle it could have burned more rich. This is my theory...
I think the car's ECU would have interpolated the response and calculate for a margin of air velocity it wasn't expecting, thus creating a more rich state than necessary, regardless of the high throttle settings being set the same as the low throt. settings, since the ecu is still controlling the base levels.
However, the CO values are also the signs for a rich state and that level has been dramatically reduced since I dropped in the "guaranteed to pass" in a bottle stuff in the car. The results were..
results to pass
HC 2.4097 - 2.5000 a previous best was a 2.8. Not much difference
CO 4.9534 - 20.0000 not much diff results from the others here out.
CO2 357.7074 - n/a
NOx 3.0495 - 6.0000
the gas cap pressure and visual cat test always passed the tests.
One other side note. I still think I have an issue and a larger one at that with the car back to the fully original modded state. But, there is one remaining variable that I can not solve for now, and that is the car is undoubtly trying to burn oil with it. That in itself could be the reason the HC's are high but the Co's are still low.

[erik]

If I hadn't mentioned it. A big thanks to all who helped me brainstorm orther ideas as to how to get this solved to the point of passing. :)
eerrik

[Erron Spalsbury]

Sweet Erik! Glad to see it passed!

Check out the new avatar! Thanks Dave!

Erron S.

[erik]

Heay! I thought I sent you that photo. Or did Dave reconvert it for you? I would like to know how to make one too. I tried to downsize my photos to get it to fit a 70X70 res. parameter as well. Dave let me know if you did.
After reading all the posts about the emmitions replys, I realized that the car has to be fixed. One of the issues could likely be the rings and the other is probly the injectors. But the only way to diagnose this is to replace them and try different ones. I tried the injectors, now I'll try the rings when I rebuild the engine. Hopefully soon.
I will do some more datalogging tests in the mean time to chart the developments.
All this ... I hope someone can learn from this and if anyone has problems with thier car for emmitions, they can resolve them with this info. No one should have to go thru what I have for this.
:p

[tekky]

Erik, send me the pic and give me the specs you need, I can convert it for ya rather easily ;)