Stroker engines....

[v413nc3]

Ok, so here is some information and someone please tell me where I'm going wrong with this... first off the info came from Ross pistons, secondly, I have a 7 bolt 4G63, they have 2 different 63's listed, the A and B I assume the 7 is the B casting....



4g64 Block height, 237.79mm
46g4 Stroke Length, 101mm
4g64 rod length, 151mm
4g64 Stock compression height, 36.29mm

4g63b Block height, 229mm
4g63b Stroke length, 88mm
4g63b Rod length, 150mm
4g63b Stock compression height, 35.06mm


So here is the deal, I am using a 4G64 crank to stroke my 7 bolt 63... I need custom pistons made for the application from Ross @ 0.020 over. I need to figure out what the dimentions are to tell them how to make them. To figure Compression height (the distance from the wrist pin to the top of the piston) You take 1/2 the Stroke length (because half of it's up, half of it is down) + the rod length and Subtract it from the Block height. I need to figure out my Compression Height so that the the new piston on a 150mm rod with 101mm of stroke doesn't smash into the head. So.... here is my math:

Stroke 101mm (4G64 Crank)
Rod 150mm (4G63B rod)
Block height 229mm (4G63b Block)

50.5 ( .5 of 101)
+150 (63 rod)
----------
200.5mm

229 (63 block)
- 200.5
----------
28.5mm new Compression Height?

So the wrist pin needs to be moved up 6.56mm from the stock location right?

[Hal]

or you can just give them this:

Ross job #68591 / 8.5:1 pistons

Double check... but should be 4g63 6 bolt for use with a 4g64 crank.

Just have them copy it and change the pin dia for the 7 bolt

Hal

[v413nc3]

Yes hal, I believe I love you now....LoL Thanks... is that what you're running? And are the mains the same size on the rods between the 64 and 63? I was told the 63 rods would fit just fine...

[Hal]

the rod and journal dia. are the same on the 63 & 64 cranks

and, yes those will be the pistons I will be running

[v413nc3]

Awesome, just needed to know if I needed the crank turned down, good thing I don't :) Should be a fun buildup... I think I'm gonna have them ceramic coated from FFWD.

[dougs90gsx]

OK just wondering does FFWD use BJ's heads? Just wondering because that is what I have heard in the past... Are they a very reputable company? I have only heard little things about them but they look like they really are... any info would be good thanks...

[Hal]

Yes, FFWD uses BJ, as does TurboTrix and several others.

They are "reputable", but like anyone else they have their good days and bad.

I've heard of quality issues and delivery delays... but those appear to be the exception.

Hal

[dougs90gsx]

Thanks Hal you and your son are helping me out like a MOFO :) I am just new to the whole engine part and pretty much DSM and the more people that help me out the better and you guys ROCK. I am just trying to figure out the best way to build and learn or whatnot. Thanks for all your help and advice...

[v413nc3]

Hal, thanks for the info on the pistons... they just called, and the pistons are being shipped to FFWD to be cryo'd and ceramic coated before coming back.... looks like the engine is coming out soon to be stroked!

[Hal]

What did they charge you for them?

[v413nc3]

$636 with a $20 drop charge added because they're going straight to FFWD. 29.94 Compression height, 8.5:1 Compression Ratio, .5mm over with a .866 wrist pin, oil galley, spiro lox, pins and rings

[v413nc3]

Ok, I just recieved the invoice....

424.20 for the pistons
39.12 for the pins
14.48 for the pin fit
27.52 for the oil ring support
34.40 to mill the inside skirts
74.24 for the rings
10 for shipping it to FFWD instead of me

$633.33

plus 89 from ffwd for the ceramics and 50 for the cryo

so like 780 or so total for my pistons

[v413nc3]

oh and for those that want 0.020 over ross pistons for a 7 bolt stroker the job# is 75448 to save you the hassle

[Dallas J]

I bet for the first week he has them he's gonna take them around town to show everyone.:p ...J/k.

What are the benifits of getting ceramic coated and cryo treated?
Besides the obvious strength enhancement.

--Dallas J

[v413nc3]

LoL, I'd rather show off my rods...

Ceramic coating disperses heat more evenly, also ceramics have a higher tolerance for temperature, which means it will be harder to melt through the top of the piston.

The cryogenic process is to rearange crystalization and remove stress defects from hardening/tempering. It increases wear resistance and reduces problems with early fatigue.

[Hal]

Why didn't you have Ross coat them?

Hal

[Dallas J]

Hey Hal,

Did you and dave have yours coated and or treated?

-Dallas J

[Hal]

Ours were coated by Ross.

After my experiences, I won't use a piston that's not FULLY coated. I'm sure the coating saved my pistons from "melt down" a few times.

I'm not a "cryo" believer :)

Hal

[GimPin]

I was hoping some of you could answer a few of my questions about the stroker setup ..... I have heard that the reliability of the engine goes down when the engine is stroked due to the increased rod speed.... I can see how the rod angle would be different but do not understand how the rod speed would be different.... does this make sense to anybody or am I just bableing nonsense

[Hal]

The rod speed is increased because it must cover more distance (stroke) in the same amount of time (rpms).

I haven't heard of any reliability problems when the motor is built with good parts. (eagle/crower/pauter rods).

Hal

[v413nc3]

Hal, ross said they wouldn't coat them for me, I asked... so I'll have FFWD do it instead. The cryo process is better than nothing and with the stress that guys like You, Dave and I like to run every little bit helps..

The additional stress comes from the stroke length. The longer the stroke the more vibration that is caused in the rod. Any internal flaws that the rod might have could cause it to fail. The only reason I'm thinking of running my redline @ 9200 rpm with a stroked 2.3l is because crower made me custom Titanium rods. otherwise I would probably choose a much lower RPM to redline at, like 8000 or so... It's fairly normal for the shorter the stroke the higher it can rev, for example motorcycle engines have very very short strokes, and because of this they redline upwards of 12-14000 rpm, as the displacement of these bikes increase the stroke does also, and the redline drops... the liter bikes normally redline between 8500-11500 rpm. There are things that you can do to help your engine rev higher (valve float and head related issuses I won't touch on but are just as important to take into account). Such as lighter stronger materials (titanium), weight matching and good balancing. A good fluid type dampner is also a bonus, or even an aftermarket well balanced solid harmonic dampner. Also even though Hal isn't a big fan of it cryo treatments help the rods immensly IMHO by realigning the sub structure of the metal. It has been proven to make parts less susceptable to harmonic stress, and increases tolerances to wear and fatigue.

[Hal]

Why wouldn't Ross coat them?

Hal

[v413nc3]

The sales person (Jenny C) said that they don't do ceramic coating. I guess I took her word on it since I didn't knwo you had yours done there...

[Hal]

Well, I assume they did the coatings... because we got them and the seller told us that Ross coated them.

Oh well. If they don't do it, I think there is a place in Ft. Collins that does coating, or I'll send them out.

Hal

[v413nc3]

I just had it sent right from Ross to FFWD... it cost me $10 for the shipping drop charge and $89 to coat them.

[GimPin]

I am considering buying forged pistons for my next rebuilt was wondering if the ceramic coating is worth the extra $100 (remember I am kinda poor)

[v413nc3]

The ceramic coating disperses heat more evenly over the surface of the piston and has a MUCH higher melting point. Given these two characteristics you can more safely run higher levels of boost without it burning through the top of your piston... BTW I have pictures of what that looks like :)

[Hal]

IMO, coating (full coating, not just the tops) is worth every dime.

Consider the fact that the factory pistons for these cars are coated.

Hal

[GimPin]

Pics would be great


Originally posted by v413nc3
The ceramic coating disperses heat more evenly over the surface of the piston and has a MUCH higher melting point. Given these two characteristics you can more safely run higher levels of boost without it burning through the top of your piston... BTW I have pictures of what that looks like :)

[v413nc3]

As soon as they arrive from FFWD I will post some. Also I will post my rods as soon as FedEx gets here today :) Crower Titanium :) :) :) And I got in my Evo factory spec external oil cooler mount today... I highly suggest it if anyone wants to run an oil cooler AND relocate their oil filter.

[Hal]

I finally ordered my pistons :)

I clearanced the block (6-bolt & Eagle rods).

I measured the crank end play, and it's out of spec @ .017.

Not a big deal, I'll just have a "thicker" thrust shell put in it.

I've pulled all of the oil galley plugs out of it, and removed the oil squirters.

Once the pistons arrive (and get coated by ATC in Loveland), I'll have the block/crank machine work done.

Hal

[v413nc3]

Good deal Hal, you should see your pistons shipping in about 5 or so days, that's how long mine took. Looks like we're doing the work at the same time. I am purchasing a head torque plate so if you want Geddes down in the springs to bore and hone your block with it just lemme know.

[Hal]

Ross quoted me 2 - 3 weeks.

But, I'm in no hurry.

Hal

[v413nc3]

Yeah I got the same estimate.

[erik]

You said that Ross doesn't ceramic coat pistons? Well, as far as I know, they do but the coatings that you refer, might not be ceramic. Turbotrix got me Ross's and I requested the "nitrite" coating. According to John Shepherd, most that are coated are this way, and the term ceramic stuck instead. ... Maybe there are two ways to coat them but I'd ask Ross about Nitrite coatings instead. Mine are that way, as far as I know. ... So are my 1mm over valves and they seem to have the identical finish as the pistons.
Yet another source says that ceramic is a good coating for holding heat away (like IC plumbing) but with the excessive amounts of heat and other stresses, ceramic wouldn't last long on a piston more than a couple hundred miles, at best. Or in a boosted car, likely a lot less. Ceramic is brittle and if it flakes off in your car's combustion chamber, guess where it's going next?
erik w.

[v413nc3]

Actually the nitrite coating is very good and mine have it as well... but the ceramic coating lasts a very very long time. It's a form of ceramics that was developed for the military quite a number of years ago. It was origionally known as Cermel. Basically it's a ceramic metalic bond. Very impact resistant and heat resistant/dissipative. It helps more evenly disperse heat over the head of the piston. Very worth the money IMHO. My pistons should ship by tomorrow/wednesday from OK (FFWD) so I should have them soon (I hope by friday so I can start the buildup). If you want you're welcome to check them out.

[erik]

yah! I would like that. Can you take a gdigiphoto of them for future reference? I can if you want me to.
erik

[v413nc3]

Sure I've been taking random photo's of stuff I have. They leave FFWD tomorrow so I should have them in 3 days or so.

[v413nc3]

Pistons are here, I'll put up some pics

[Hal]

I ordered my clutch for the 6 bolt.

An integral twin disc/flywheel setup.

Hal

[v413nc3]

Carbon fiber? I saw one I kinda liked it was around $2000... you get all the clamping force of a 4 puck and don't have to worry about it tearing your poor imput shaft to pieces

[v413nc3]

Ok, so I sent away for a torque plate today, $403. Anyone looking to bore/hone their engines (4G63/4G64) I'll be renting it out @ $75 a pop.

[Hal]

The 2.3 pistons arrived from Ross today.

So, I'll be hauling the pile of parts off to the machine shop.

Looking good for a "late march/early april" installation.

Hal

[v413nc3]

WOOHOO Hal!!! Sounds like we're gonna be doing it at the same time. Does your shop have a torqe plate?

[Hal]

bummer... I measured the pistons.

They were machined for "2g" rods :(

I'll have to have the "little" end of my Eagle rods narrowed a little bit.

Hal

[v413nc3]

Uhm, I didn't even check mine.... I think it's about time I do

[Bloodline]

Did you ever check your pistons to see if they are correct? Just wondering if job #68591 is correct for 1G rods, 6 bolt 4G64 crank configuration before I order my pistons.

jeff

[v413nc3]

Hal's are correct I believe.

[v413nc3]

Geddes has everything, and I am waiting for them to finish machining before reassembly begins.... 2.3 here we come

[-EpicEVO-]

Hey hal,

Why did you end up with eagle rods?? I thought you were big crower fan..

And what are you going to do with your old 7 bolt block??

MARK

[v413nc3]

I believe he went with them because Eagles are damn nice rods too and lighter and cheaper. And I think there is a post that he was selling his block for like $1500 or something like that.

[Hal]

I picked up the 2.3 from the machine shop today :)

Hal

- oh, and my bill for parts AND labor was $243 and the parts were a full set of main & rod bearings :)

[v413nc3]

NICE!!!

[v413nc3]

Ok, Geddes is pissin me off... they STILL haven't started on my job.

[hoffman]

it seems everyone in the springs goes there. but the work is good once they get around to it. i believe patrick had his block there for almost 6 weeks before it came back.

[v413nc3]

I love their work, which is why I chose them. They've always done great things for us at TLS racing. But they're slower than a slug on a salt block this time of year. It took Patricks a long time because he had it done during the Rocky Mountain Hill climb thing...

[BoostedGS]

Geddes had my engine for about 4 weeks, but that included having to wait to order some parts.

And yes, I dropped the engine off on the same weekend of the Pikes Peak Hill Climb, so the broken race cars were priority for the first couple of weeks.

[v413nc3]

Ok, general info for those using these job card numbers to order pistons from ross for hybrid strokers... VERIFY that the third groove (oil scraper ring groove) is either .180 deep OR if it is .150 deep that they get you special oil ring support rings of a .140 thickness. They mentioned that it has happened a few times that they messed up and you'll spend weeks trying to get the right stuff to make it work.

[Super Talon]

I'm very freaked out about the rings that ross sends out... i got all the rings gapped (only one ring needed fileing) and got 3 out of the 4 pistons fitted into the cylinders, but while placing the piston and ring into the cylinder using the compresser and the middle ring litteraly crumbled... 1.5" of ring turned into play sand size hunks of junk... 17$ later and another 10$ for shipping i get another ring set sent out. Im just glad i knoticed what happened... it would have been a disaster...

[v413nc3]

My rings worked just fine except the size issue.

[Super Talon]

i think western might have sized my rings cause the one i had to adjust was only .01" off...

[Bloodline]

My 2.4L is coming together now as well. I have made some changes from the proposed setup in my earlier posts. It took a while to get Pauter to make the rods, 4 months, but they arrived last week from Brian @ Pauter. Right now there are only 3 sets on the planet, I have one set and Marco has the other two sets. Marco will be selling the rods at the same price as off the shelf Pauters soon however. Anyway. I decided to run 156mm rods and a set of custom Ross pistons with a relocated wrist pin which has also been offset. If I can make up my mind on a turbo, the car should be up and running next month sometime.

Here are some pics of the rods and pistons. The rest of the info on the car can be found at my website listed below. Pics (http://swordfishgsx.8m.com/4G64/)

jeff

[Hal]

I took the 2.3 out this morning to do some full boost tuning.

After the first pull, I lost the oil supply line to the oil cooler.

It puked out all of the oil. :(

After fixing the line and adding oil it fired up and I drove it home.

It had a "hint" of rod knock, so I dropped the pan.

No crank journal damage but all of the rod/main bearings need to be replaced.

Should be back on the road by the weekend.

Hal

- dsmlink chart of 2nd gear pull -

[v413nc3]

Looks solid, love that torque curve...

[hoffman]

is that dip on 02vs around 4k rpms?

[sunflashx]

I'm curious why you guys chose 2.3L strokers in 4g63 blocks over 2.4L strokers using a 2.4L block?

[v413nc3]

because of all the additional work involved in prepping a 4G64 block, and the effort in locating one versus just locating a 4G64 crankshaft.

[ph3r3d]

The person building my 2.3L is using JE pistons in his 2.3 and mine.. any input on these?

also if all goes as plan, its going to be assemled next week and i'll have it out in 2 weeks from now. :D

[sunflashx]

Originally posted by v413nc3
because of all the additional work involved in prepping a 4G64 block, and the effort in locating one versus just locating a 4G64 crankshaft.

What prep work would be different on a 2.4L block?

[v413nc3]

JE pistons are shit. Anyone who's ever run them will tell you the same. They give you excessive piston slap that will destroy your cross hatching and force you to redo the block in a year or two.


And the prep work is filling holes in the deck then re-milling it.

[sunflashx]

6 bolt 2.4L blocks don't have those holes.

[v413nc3]

Feel free to track down the blocks. We did ours because we already have the blocks

[sunflashx]

I did. :) Picked a short block up local a while back for $100, they even pulled it for me.

Just wanted to make sure there wasn't some reason using the 4g63 block was a better option.

[v413nc3]

Not especially. If you already have a 64 block go for it :) A little boring and honing and you'll be in the 2.5l area :)

[v413nc3]

FYI I've worked rod stress angles in a 4G63/64 hybrid out to be 12% higher than a 63 and 10.5% lower than a 64... figuring this out I come up with running a hybrid at 8500rpm redline is like running a 63 at just over 9500 and a 64 at 7600RPM... we'll see if she takes it well with the forged internals.

[Dallas J]

Originally posted by v413nc3
FYI I've worked rod stress angles in a 4G63/64 hybrid out to be 12% higher than a 63 and 10.5% lower than a 64... figuring this out I come up with running a hybrid at 8500rpm redline is like running a 63 at just over 9500 and a 64 at 7600RPM... we'll see if she takes it well with the forged internals.

I thought that using the 64 block would have less rod angle cause of the extra 6mm deck height. You can use slightly longer rods than if you used the 64 crank in a 63 block.

-Dallas J

[v413nc3]

They use almost the exact same rod length... it has 9mm deck height extra, not 6mm... I've seen all over this phantom 6mm number... it's 9mm, straight from Ross, who needs to know for piston design. The 6mm comes from the longer stroke (1/2 of the 12mm extra stroke) And the "phantom" 3mm comes from a different wrist pin location. their pistons are a bit 'taller' than ours are plus 1mm for the slightly longer rod.

4G64
100mm stroke
151mm rod
238mm deck height
37mm compression height

4G63
88mm stroke
150mm rod
229mm deck height
35mm compression height


Pretty easy to see :)

[chrisgvr4]

64s and 63s have the same length rod

[v413nc3]

Yes and no. Ross said there's a variance in the rod length of up to 0.8mm with the 4G64.

[sunflashx]

6 Bolt and 7 bolt factory specifications.

4g63 Block Overall Height - 283.9 - 284.1
4g64 Block Overall Height - 289.9 - 290.1

Rod Length 149.9 - 150.0

All 7 bolt 2.0 and 2.4 motors use the same factory rods.
MD193027

All 6 bolt 1.6, 1.8, 2.0 and 2.4 motors use the same factory rods.
MD040550

This includes 1987-1999 USDM Vans, Galants, Might Max trucks, Expos, Eclipses, Mirages, Montero Sports, Outlanders, etc.

The new Lancer cars have a different rod it looks like, but the still in production outlander uses the same 7 bolt rods everything else gets.

.8mm variation? Definately out of spec for acceptable tolerances. Tell Ross to RTFM.

[sunflashx]

Originally posted by Dallas J
I thought that using the 64 block would have less rod angle cause of the extra 6mm deck height. You can use slightly longer rods than if you used the 64 crank in a 63 block.

-Dallas J

Longer rods are optional. Most people use the factory length rods.

The long rod setup Marco sells has 156mm rods. I'm not aware of anyone else selling such a setup. "Long Rod" ratio would vary with the length of the rods. They could be shorter, but I think any longer would be harder to do.

Rod stroke ratio's:

Normal 2.4 - 1.5
2.3L - 1.5
LR 2.4 - 1.56
Normal 2.0 - 1.7

Not sure how wrist pin placement affects rod angle or stress factors. I beleive the r/s ratio makes up the significant portion of the whole sidewall loading issue.

Another part of the limiting factor of the 100mm stroke crank is the piston speed. The piston is moving 12mm farther than a 88mm stroke. Rev it too high and when the rod tells the piston to come back down, the piston doesn't obey. At least not all of it anyway. :eek: I have no idea at what point that happens with any of the motors or what influences it, but it is something to keep in mind. I'd assume there are also other issues associated with that. People generaly neglect this issue, so it's either not that big of a deal, or they aren't aware of it.