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v413nc3
03-28-2003, 12:06 PM
I figured I'd write some info for people who don't understand the mysterious thing we call suspension. Now I’d just like to state ahead of time that this is only going to lightly brush on suspension for drag racing. This article will be more geared towards road racing, although I suspect if you ask real real nice Amanda might put up some information on suspension for AutoX. Just a quick point on my experience so you can take for it what you will on how much I might or might not know about it… I started my racing career NHRA racing, from there I moved to the Amateur, semi-pro and pro class road racing and I was up until this season a driver on the GP1-I road race circuit, and plan on getting back in as an independent since I dropped my sponsor.

Sway bars, strut braces, pillow ball mounts, compression dampening, rebound dampening, spring rate, over-steer, under-steer, all kinds of things you hear mentioned about suspension, what do they mean, and how do they pertain to YOU?

Sway bars, or stabilizer bars are part of a car's suspension system. They are sometimes also called anti-sway bars or anti-roll bars. Their purpose in life is to try to keep the car's body from "rolling" in a sharp turn. Think about what happens to a car in a sharp turn. If you are inside the car, you know that your body gets pulled toward the outside of the turn. The same thing is happening to all the parts of the car. So the part of the car on the outside of the turn gets pushed down toward the road and the part of the car on the inside of the turn rises up. In other words, the body of the car "rolls" 10 or 20 or 30 degrees toward the outside of the turn. If you take a turn fast enough, the tires on the inside of the turn actually rise off the road and the car flips over. Roll is bad. It tends to put more weight on the outside tires and less weigh on the inside tires, reducing traction. It also messes up steering. What you would like is for the body of the car to remain flat through a turn so that the weight stays distributed evenly on all four tires. A stabilizer bar tries to keep the car's body flat by moving force from one side of the body to another. To picture how a stabilizer bar works, imagine a metal rod that is an inch or two (2 to 5 cm) in diameter. If your front tires are 5 feet (1.6 meters) apart, make the rod about 4 feet long. Attach the rod to the frame of the car in front of the front tires, but attach it with bushings in such a way that it can rotate. Now attach arms from the rod to the front suspension member on both sides. When you go into a turn now, the front suspension member of the outside of the turn gets pushed upward. The arm of the sway bar gets pushed upward, and this applies torsion to the rod. The torsion them moves the arm at the other end of the rod, and this causes the suspension on the other side of the car to compress as well. The car's body tends to stay flat in the turn. If you don't have a stabilizer bar, you tend to have a lot of trouble with body roll in a turn. If you have too much stabilizer bar, you tend to lose independence between the suspension members on both sides of the car. When one wheel hits a bump, the stabilizer bar transmits the bump to the other side of the car as well, which is not what you want. The ideal is to find a setting that reduces body roll but does not hurt the independence of the tires.

Strut braces work in the same way that a sway bar does. But they keep the top of the car from flexing, keeping the body flat through turns. The difference between them is that a strut brace is designed to so that the stiffer the better, since your strut towers do not need the functioning of independence. As a small side note, most people adjust their strut tower braces incorrectly. If it is adjustable the majority of people I have observed attempting to adjust it as short as possible, pulling the top of the tower towards each other, this is not the way they were designed, you should actually attempt to push them as far away from each other as possible, thus attaining rigidity of body.

Pillow ball mounts, or spherical mounts as they are also known attach to the top of the strut, just under where your strut brace connects. They allow the shock or strut to move under heavy load, attempting to keep correct alignment of the knuckle to the other. They help in keeping your suspension from moving at odd angles so that you can keep the same stroke distance with your piston, thus effectively helping you keep your compression and rebound settings the same throughout the turn.

Compression and rebound dampening, the first controls the downward movement of your vehicle (upward movement of the wheel). The second is rebound dampening. It controls the upward movement of your vehicle (extension of the suspension). Without these you basically feel like you’re on a trampoline bouncing like a bunny rabbit. With drag racing you want the wheels in the back to be able to come all the way up under acceleration and yet still be able to return quickly out of load back to their normal location, if you have moderate priced shocks like tokiko’s or KYB’s you’ll want to adjust them all the way soft, it’s better that you get less rebound with your less compression than more rebound and more compression. If you have a two or three way adjustable then start by turning compression down all the way and rebound up all the way, start to adjust them towards middle one click at a time until you get better traction results. For road racing I will only cover two-way adjustments since you really shouldn’t be racing on something that doesn’t have independent adjustments, if you do, take from this what you will…

The ultimate purpose of a shock is to work together with the spring to keep the tire on track, in compression to help control the movement of the wheel and in rebound to help absorb the stored energy of the compressed spring. When attempting to adjust compression dampening always start all the way soft, (0 clicks) and adjust harder. Rebound adjustments are usually indicated by the driver needing more stability, by increasing low speed dampening, stability will be enhanced; decreasing dampening will allow more movement in the car, but will result in a little better tire wear. Also, the amount of rebound dampening will great influences on weight transfer, less front rebound will allow weight transfer to the rear under acceleration. Less rebound in the rear allows greater transfer to the front under braking and turn in. When a car is over dampened in rebound it can pack down in a series of bumps and you will recognize this as too stiff and usually will think it’s compression dampening. Too much rebound can also cause lack of grip in cornering. When making a large spring change keep in mind where the rebound adjuster is and do you have enough range to compensate. Sometimes a spring change will bring a better balance to the dampening values after the spring change. If the spring/shock combination is balanced, the rule of thumb is a stiffer spring requires lower compression and higher rebound. A softer requires higher compression lower rebound.

Spring rate, a spring is a mechanical device that absorbs energy through deflection and then expels that energy by trying to get back to it's non-deflected state. As the suspension is compressed, the spring is compressed. The spring takes the energy of the compressing suspension, stores it, although it may only store it for a few milliseconds, and then releases this stored energy in the action of expanding the suspension back. A spring has a linear rate when they are wound in a constant spiral with each consecutive coil being spaced apart the same as the previous coil. If the distance between the coils gets smaller or larger depending on which way you go, then the spring is considered to be a progressive wind. What does "Linear Rate" mean? It's pretty simple. Let's say you have a 15-inch long 100-pound rated spring, and let's assume that it will coil bind, where the coils touch due to compression of the spring, at a compressed length of 5 inches. This means that it takes 100 pounds of force to compress the spring one inch. So, it will take another 100 pounds, for a total of 200 pounds, to compress the spring 2 inches. If you graph it out, it's a nice straight line. You can see that our spring can take 1000 pounds (or 10 inches of compression distance) to collapse it to the point of coil bind. What makes a spring progressive is a geometry where some of the coils bind up partway through the anticipated travel. For instance let's take our original spring and play with the coil spacing. Let's wind it so that the first two coils only have ¼ inch of air between them while the other two coils have substantially more. Put 100 pounds on the spring, it compresses 1 inch. But at that point, two of the coils can't compress any more. Add another 100 pounds and it only compresses ½ inch; i.e. the rate of the spring has doubled to 200 lb/in.

Over steer and under steer, two interesting terms in which the latter you hear about our cars all the time. Over-steer is the point in which entering a turn your rear tires break traction before your front ones do. Conversely under-steer is where your front tires break traction before your rear ones will. Most manufacturers will set a car suspension for under-steer because it warns the driver that you are reaching the limits of handling and you should back off. Over-steer is very prevalent in rear wheel drive vehicles, where power causes the back end to loose traction because of steering geometry. Companies such as RMDSM.com try to compensate for our bad under-steer by setting our suspension to “neutral” or basically neither over nor under steer. I believe that on courses with soft turns neutral works well, but on a course with sharp turns where a small amount of drift would be nice a solid over-steer capability can be very useful.

hoffman
03-30-2003, 12:31 AM
ok, so where do ponies come from:p

the big question boggleing my mind lately is if i install 97+ lower arms, how much this will effect the ability to adjust camber . atleast in the front.

v413nc3
03-30-2003, 02:08 AM
you mean your LCA's? As in your Laterals? Uhm, I wouldn't bother with them if you're serious... I'm getting some fabricated, and after I have them I was just going to duplicate the design. Full tubular design, with a nice range of adjustment :) Ahh the proper way to do things :D

v413nc3
03-30-2003, 02:10 AM
Oh, and above, where I stated "piston" I mean the piston that moves within the shock/strut housing

hoffman
03-31-2003, 08:12 PM
sorry, just used to calling it the lower lateral control arm. but you knew where i was going.

its been noted by other autox guys that the 97+ is slightly longer than the 95-96 arm. so almost a full degree o negative camber can be had by switching arms.

i already told you that i saw on JIC's site a while back about there adjustable arms coming for dsms. you find anything out? maybe i should call japan since im in the same time zone.:p

v413nc3
03-31-2003, 11:13 PM
They tell me no... :( I sent out to a different company that did stuff for the GP car I drove...:)

OneSlowEclipse
03-31-2003, 11:33 PM
Dang... you musta been typing that all night!!

You didn't talk about camber at all from what I can see. This is something that I have always wondered about, because you never see race cars with much negative camber, yet I have always heard that negative camber is better for handling. Maybe you could shed some light on this for me? (im trying to decide if I need to get camber kits or not...)

OneSlowEclipse
03-31-2003, 11:40 PM
One more thing I thought about. I read your piece of strut braces, but how affective are they? I had both front and rear upper bars but I didn't see much change in handling from them. I was also considering getting a set of lower tie bars (decent ones, not ebay crap) From what I can see most of the bars out there are mainly for looks. Necessary or not?

BTW here is my suspension mod list, for you to comment on or whatever. Since you seem to be the suspension god in here. :D

Tokico blues, Goldline springs, factory front sway bar, Suspension techniques 3/4" rear sway bar, ES master bushing set, front strut bar

OneSlowEclipse
04-05-2003, 08:59 AM
Thanks for answering my questions.....

hoffman
04-05-2003, 06:57 PM
simmadownnow!:p

as far as what your looking at for suspension. i like the ES bushings. they are a good choice. you could get the rear sway cheaper from RMRacing. but you want to have a rear strut tower bar as well. since the FWD cars understeer, you want the rear suspension to be tighter. so theres nothig wrong with a factory front and upgraded rear sway. but dont tighten the front upper body roll and leave the rear alone.

as far as the shocks, tokicos are nice but i cant comment on the gold lines. just make sure you get new upper shock mount bushings. checkout the autox dsm homepage for more on that.

v413nc3
04-07-2003, 12:11 AM
Sorry I've been in the springs so I wasn't checking the board...


Camber: You have 2 types of camber, which is basically the angle at which the TOP of your tire is at. NEGATIVE camber which is where the top is angled in towards the engine compartment, and POSITIVE where it is angled away.

Negative camber helps with correct understeer and will aid in agressive handling. This is because when you go to steer the inside wheel is already going to "plow" towards the corner.

Positive camber adds to understeer and aids in straight line handling.

I don't know where you figure "race" cars don't have negative camber, I usually run a good deal of negative to help with cornering.

Strut bars I would say are extremely effective in preventing body roll when used in CONJUNCTION with a good swaybar setup. Art makes a good point in the fact that if you stiffen the front and don't do much with the rear you're gonna have exaggerated your understeer problem. I would get a much larger rear sway, such as a good one from RMDSM and a rear strut. This should help center out your suspension.

As far as your setup. It looks to be a good street setup and with minor adjustments can be a good beginer/mild setup for roadracing. You definately need to take care of your rear suspension if you plan to AutoX though. Because your shocks have limited tuning capabilities it's hard to really give recomendations on your setup. If you would like to speak more on the subject though I would be glad to give suggestions.

OneSlowEclipse
04-07-2003, 12:37 AM
Well first of all, forgive the newbie questions. I am fairly new to suspension mods, or functional suspension mods anyway. There are very few people really into suspension on 2gnt that are willing to talk and answer stupid questions.

"I would get a much larger rear sway, such as a good one from RMDSM"

So what is considered large? The RMDSM upgrade for the FWD cars is actually smaller than the suspension techniques bar I got which is 3/4". The only larger I have seen is the GSX RMDSM bar and that is one .81" or something.

I had planned on getting a rear strut bar, I just haven't found a functional one that I liked yet. I don't understand how leaving the rear a bit loose can exagerate understeer though. If the rear was a bit loose, wouldn't it start to loose traction quicker? Or are you saying the weight of the rear leaning will pull the front end?

v413nc3
04-07-2003, 11:38 AM
I keep forgetting you're not AWD. You won't get better oversteer with a stiffer rear. For a good rear strut I would use RoadRace Engineerings rear strut brace, very good strut bar. As far as sway bars go... always buy the ones for the AWD, they bolt right up and will give you a much stiffer suspension I don't mind answering newbie questions, it's the whole reason I wrote this.

GimPin
04-07-2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by OneSlowEclipse
Dang... you musta been typing that all night!!

You didn't talk about camber at all from what I can see. This is something that I have always wondered about, because you never see race cars with much negative camber, yet I have always heard that negative camber is better for handling. Maybe you could shed some light on this for me? (im trying to decide if I need to get camber kits or not...)

next time there is nothing on TV to watch flip to speed channel and watch the Indy or CART cars and get a good view of their front wheels ..... There MASIVE negative camber .... circle track guys usualy have masive negative camber on their outside wheels

GimPin
04-07-2003, 12:09 PM
oh yeah and thanks for all the info... its been very helpful

v413nc3
04-07-2003, 06:22 PM
Glad to be of help. I think I'll write a second one and put all these in the review area so you guys have a place to refer to for info. I think I'll call it Suspension 202 ;)

hoffman
04-08-2003, 05:32 PM
just to give you guys an idea i am running -3 degrees front and -2 degrees rear camber. this is pretty close to the sweet spot for how i drive the car. if the car feels alittle off in the turns, then i adjust the tire pressure to make up for it.


theres thousands of ways to make a car handle better. you just need to know what you want to do with it.

v413nc3
09-02-2003, 01:03 AM
Dave!! Make this a sticky

hoffman
09-02-2003, 04:16 PM
done

Sleepy
09-12-2004, 05:18 PM
So this is my first post to the site. I owned a 1G for a while and am contemplating another one right now. However, I saw this "suspension" post and one peice was confusing to me - the strut tower.
Hang on for the long post :(

Ok, I have some questions about the strut tower brace. You state with regard to the strut tower brace that you “should actually attempt to push them as far away from each other as possible.” This does not make sense to me. Let’s look at a couple of things.

First of all, physics. An object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. So you car is ripping down the road at a significant pace. You initiate a turn by adjusting the steering input. The contact patch of the tire then loads and starts forcing the vehicle in a new direction – however, the vehicle wants to go straight. So the tire flexes: the lower portion pulls in while the top of the tire pushes out. Basically the top still tries to go straight while the contact patch forces it to turn. The same is true for everything above the contact patch – it all keeps trying to go straight. This would seem to be true for the strut tower as well. Which means that the top of the tower pushes out just like the top of the tire and would thus need to “pull” on the other brace to remain rigid.

Ok, another view, leverage. The tire (and ultimately the contact patch) is connected to a wheel. The wheel is connected to a spindle and rides on a bearing. This is the only place that contact is made between the car and the rim – the bearing on the spindle! So, all of the force on the bearing is placed there by the contact patch of the tire. When turning (regarding the outside tire), all of the force on the outside wheel is being forced in on the lower part of the bearing while unloading (not loading as much or to a lesser degree) the top of the bearing. Since this acts as a lever to the spindle (pushing in on the bottom and pulling out on the top, or pushing up on the inside of the spindle while pulling down on the outside) and to the rest of the suspension components, the force of pushing in on the lower part of the bearing must be resisted by other parts of the car/suspension. Therefore, the force pushing in on the bottom pulls all pieces above it OUT. Thus the loaded strut tower is pulled away from the other less loaded tower.

Basically, the tower tries to separate when cornering and thus should be forced to pull on the other tower. So to pull on the other tower, you would need the brace to be a short as possible, not long. It would seem to me that you would want the brace to “pull as close as possible” rather than pushing apart.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

v413nc3
09-12-2004, 05:31 PM
Yeah, the issue with that is that it's easier for it to push away than it is to pull inward. Simple stress evaluation. And road testing has proven this time and again. Ask anyone you'd like that road races a DSM, like RRE and they'll tell you the same.

Mtndragon
11-05-2004, 08:01 PM
I'm truly NOT experienced enough in suspension to engage deeply into this, BUT basic common sense would place a "fulcrum" point somewhere midline of the strut unit. So that if one strut brace pushed, and a second pulled, one (might? ) transfer MORE stress to the strut braceS themselves. thus increasing RIGIDITY So if the strut tower brace "controls" above the "fulcrum" does the sway bar control below?
and if so wouldn't an "upper" and "lower" (adjustable) sway bar system be worthy of design consideration?

My first lady was a '71 T/A Challenger when I was but a youngster... So when you explain the torsional effects of a proper sway bar setup, bells ring

Can someone explain the application of front/rear upper/lower braces (and overall suspension set ups) on AWD -vs- fwd? :confused:


Hwy 24 from Minturn to Leadville is what I use to gauge my suspension (or more correctly, my driving ability... ) what's your favorite stretch of CO Blacktop?

BTW, that was a FANTASTIC write up.

spooled50trim
05-23-2007, 09:56 PM
awesome info

poisondsm
04-13-2009, 01:13 AM
So what would you recommend for a good just all around driver setup of shocks/springs, for a +/-300 horse 1g AWD, and how important are sway bar upgrades??

Also I have access to a welder is there any subframe attachments or upper shock tower to firewall bars that I could weld in that anyone can recommend??

v413nc3
04-13-2009, 11:59 AM
Seriously, I would go with a nice set of Koni's with a coilover setup and some nice Hyperco springs. And ARB (anti-roll bars) are extremely important. The whole trick is to get the car as close to neutral handling as you can. Use everything available to you to accomplish this task.

matthewdesigns
04-13-2009, 04:45 PM
Thanks for writing all this out...very informative. And now that the thread is back from the dead, I've got some additional questions as well. I'm interested in doing some suspension upgrading, but don't want to reduce the ride height of the car too much...perhaps 1/2"-1" at most...I DD the car and anything lower will be a liability/hassle as far as I'm concerned.

Any spring set I see for sale is listed as "lowering springs", and I could give a crap about actually lowering the car per se (lowered CofG notwithstanding), but rather want a spring that will be slightly stiffer than stock, and tall enough to keep me from scraping too much. I've searched the web and various sites and found the stock spring rates for 2ga AWD's (fr 265# rr 162#), but no concrete info such as diameter (2.5"?), length (8"?), etc, as would be necessary for choosing springs from a website like the Hyperco manufacturer you suggest. Do you know this info, or could you send me to a site that might be a little more car specific to DSM's, and less geared towards someone who is relatively knowledgable regarding suspensions? I've looked on VFAQ, 1000AAQ, DG's Autocross page, DSMTuners,...

I'm sure that this info is common knowledge for road racers/autoxers, but it's not for many of us. For example, on Hyperco's website, length of the spring is listed as "free length", which I'm assuming is unloaded/uncompressed. So generally, if the length of a spring is mentioned in a discussion, is it "free length" that's referenced?

Is diameter always I.D.?

I'm also seeing that, for instance, on Koni yellows, the spring perch is adjustable, so does that mean the if I started with a stock length spring, to retain stock ride height, I could adjust the perch in situ and drop the ride height a bit? Or is the spring perch only adjustable when off the car?

Is there a reference for spring stiffness as it relates to "typical" street use, drag use, autox use, etc? Aside from personal opinions, I have not found any recommendations.

Thanks again, and I hope this is not too much to ask.

v413nc3
04-13-2009, 07:02 PM
The springs you're looking at from Hyperco are 2.25 and 2.5" springs in varying lengths. None of these will work in a stock type configuration. They're used for coil-over type suspensions.

How much stiffer do you want the springs? As a general rule of thumb (I know I know it's a horrid expression) you'll always want more bar, less spring. So to help increase your handling start with larger ARB's and then work your way up the list of spring rates. By increasing the rate in the rear you'll change the natural handling of the car (which has a propensity to understeer). Now without getting into an exhaustive discussion about corner entry, exit and mid-corner handling, definitions of what slip angle is and the differences between heave, pitch, roll and warp the best thing I can tell you for what you're doing is K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid :) The kiss theory is an easy way to approach what you want. Buy a good quality shock/strut, in the case of the 2G I would suggest the Koni adjustables, and then get a good coilover setup for it. Ground control makes a good sleeve/hat setup but they use Eibach springs. Personally I cannot stand Eibachs, but I know people who have had great luck with them. YMMV.

matthewdesigns
04-14-2009, 10:28 AM
Thanks for the Koni/GC suggestion...that's one I've seen repeated a number of times. And I thought 2.5" sounded a little small to be a stock diameter spring.

How much stiffer? Good question. I can only compare what performance cars I have driven to my car, and that's not much. I'd say that the relative stiffness of a stock Audi S4 (B5) suspension, which I spent a lot of time driving a number of years ago, feels good daily, not too stiff, but that's a pretty random thing to compare my car to. It's my DD, so nothing rattle-inducing for sure.

I currently have a set of RMDSM bars installed front and rear. I debated having the front bar installed, but figured I'd go ahead with both. I knew it would still understeer that way, but I also knew I'd be doing more with the setup so I went ahead with both bars, and I play around with the tire pressure to try to decrease understeer. I'm up around 37-38psi in the front, and down around 32 in the rear on my "winter" tires (Exsta ASX's), and it has certainly helped but I'm probably not using the most scientific methods for comparisons lol.

v413nc3
04-14-2009, 11:45 AM
I would suggest increasing your rear spring rate if you're trying to decrease understeer. Of course, this is just a general idea and again ymmv.

matthewdesigns
04-14-2009, 12:48 PM
Are the rates I listed a couple of posts up correct for stock springs? I would just like to double check against the "web" source I read.

Are there general "rules of thumb" which apply to spring changes? IE, will a 50# increase yield much difference, or are steps of 100# more effective? I realize smaller steps will help in fine tuning, but I guess I'm asking if I need to double the stock spring rates to make any difference, or if that will be overkill. What do you use on your Talons, and for what purpose (autox/road racing/DD/?).

v413nc3
04-14-2009, 01:18 PM
I use 950 front 850 rear on my road race talon. I believe, but please don't quote me, that Amanda Blevins used 500 front 350 rear on her AutoX talon, and was *highly* successful with it. She also daily drove her talon and it wasn't horribly bad. I can confirm with her what those spring rates were again. For Denver I don't think I would go much over twice the spring rate of stock on a daily. It would just be too harsh. Those sound about right for stock rates if I recall correctly.

Dallas J
04-21-2009, 12:10 AM
Im still trying to figure this out, but 2gs seem to have something weird going on with them. If you go by the Natural Frequency and get close to balanced but a little to high in the rear then you get lots of over steer.

Case in point, my talon with a 700/450 split was impossible to drive with the RM rear bar, tough with the stock, and magnificent with no rear bar. Sounds weird, but looking at the N.F., that gives the front a 2.1hz and the rear a 2.6hz. To keep the rear planted I had to take away as much roll resistance as I could.

Im gonna try dropping to 350s in the rear and re-connecting the stock bar. If that doesnt have enough rotation then Ill give the RM bar another shot. 350lb/in will give me about 2.2hz.

Now heres where the weird 2g phenom comes into play. Some people like Charles Moss run 800/650 split which gives a rear ratio of about 3hz and front of 2.2hz. On top of that he has the Cusco diff which sends 65% power to the rear and both front and rear RM bars. How the hell is that back end staying planted? Id really like to drive his to see what the deal is, and how stable the car is.

Jake, can you double check your rates and give me an estimation of your corner weights, unsprung weight if you have it. Im curious how your N.F. compares. Hell, I might just have to make a trip back there again so I can test it myself :D

So far, from the rates Ive tried I like having the rear a bit softer. With how much grip I have in front I can drive the piss out of it without fearing snap oversteer.

I also just got done making these little guys in the machine shop at school. This pic just shows old vs. new. If they dont make me faster, at least they look cool :)

v413nc3
04-21-2009, 12:40 AM
Dallas, Andrew and I had some top hats done like that a few months ago based on DG's designs. They make a world of difference. My spring rates are exactly what I listed. The rear is a little happy but not overly so. The Evo3 rear diff really helps, not to mention I found that with any rubber bushings in the back at all you'll get more oversteer. Feel free to call me for the corner weight info and the unsprung weight. I have it all scribbled down. You're welcome to come fly out for a weekend and take the car out to HPR. I've got some new shoes for her that I think you'd enjoy.

Dallas J
04-21-2009, 12:57 AM
Dallas, Andrew and I had some top hats done like that a few months ago based on DG's designs. They make a world of difference. My spring rates are exactly what I listed. The rear is a little happy but not overly so. The Evo3 rear diff really helps, not to mention I found that with any rubber bushings in the back at all you'll get more oversteer. Feel free to call me for the corner weight info and the unsprung weight. I have it all scribbled down. You're welcome to come fly out for a weekend and take the car out to HPR. I've got some new shoes for her that I think you'd enjoy.

I think Im gonna try and get out to colorado when while Art's back in town before he ships out. If we cant get any track time then, we can always bench race and compare wieners...I bet mines lighter :D...I mean..uhh.. ;)

v413nc3
04-21-2009, 01:46 AM
LoL, I'll see what I can do about track time. Maybe we can get the passenger seat in and see if Art has the nuggets to ride with me :)

Dallas J
04-21-2009, 09:48 AM
Well, I doubt you can scare me... Anymore in crazy fast cars Im just thinking stuff like "feels like its pushing a little bit" or "Lets slow down on entry, slow in, fast out..keep your line"...Ive been riding with to many newbs that build a car beyond their abilities.

Anyways, let me know if youll be heading to a track day around the time Arts back. Ill figure a way to get out there.

matthewdesigns
04-21-2009, 10:00 AM
Thanks for the follow up on the spring rates, Jake.

v413nc3
04-22-2009, 12:28 AM
You can stay here if you want Dallas, my house has a few guest rooms. You'd like the new place.

TurboAWDFanatic
04-22-2009, 04:50 PM
I haven't taken the time to read the entire thread, but I though I'd add my 2 cents to putting together a good 1g suspension since that has been the main focus of my car. Sorry if this is redundant!

I chose the JIC FLT-A2 coilovers and had them tuned by John Mueller of "Muellerized..." out here in CA. I used the spring rates that came with the kit (450lbs front and 393lbs rear). Mueller slotted out the top bolt hole of the strut where it connects to the knuckle, allowing for more negative camber, and after getting the camber he wanted he welded a washer in place so it wouldn't move. I run about -2.5 degrees of camber. In setting up the car, Mueller didn't lower it very much at all. It looks almost stock ride height. The 1g's really don't like being lowered very much. The lack of shock travel kills them in the turns when they're slammed.

I also have the Suspension Techniques rear swaybar bolted on. While the swaybar and coilovers really improved handling, it was the other tricks that really brought out the potential of the car...

One of the "tricks" is correcting the tie rod angle. When you lower the car, the outer tie rod ends end up being higher than the inner side where it meets up w/ the steering rack. There's a number of ways to adjust this w/ custom built pieces, but a quick fix for AWD guys is to put FWD uprights on which have a lower mounting point for the tie rod end. This will get rid of any bump steer.

Another trick, and IMO, the SINGLE most important thing that a 1g AWD owner should do for their suspension, is to install a rear toe eliminator kit (http://www.jayracing.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=207). The rear trailing arms have mushy rubber bushings inside the tip where they connect to the chassis. They allow for toe change in the rear as the car squats and dives while turning. This leads to lots of understeer and unpredictable handling. The toe eliminator kits replace the soft bushing with a steel insert that is welded to the trailing arm. The steel insert has a threaded hole. A spherical type bearing (heim joint) is then threaded into the hole and bolted to the chassis. You can then lock down the rear toe how you want it. The result is a more neutral handling car that is a lot more predictable. This, combined w/ a good set of coilovers and a rear swaybar, and LOTS of negative camber in the front (and, of course, good tires) make for a well balanced car that handles like its on rails.

As an illustration, here's a couple videos of my 1g Talon TSi AWD at Autocross:


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Here's an outside view of the fastest run from the above video:

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Dallas J
04-22-2009, 10:49 PM
A quick check on your Natural frequencies puts you right near where I am. Although, if your having some oversteer issues Id say to stiffen the front or decrease rear roll. Also check your rear toe..Toe out will definately make your car want to dance during transitions.

As far as being neutral..Ill argue their is no such thing, only a car thats not being pushed hard enough. All cars will understeer or oversteer under different circumstances. A neutral car is a slight lift of the throttle or flick of the steering from oversteering.

racefourfun@yahoo.com
02-28-2011, 09:38 PM
OK so I admit I know nothing about suspensions. Though your explanations are great it doesn't help me make the best proven choices I need since I am on a limited budget.
I am looking for the best proven combination to make my FWD car handle as best as it can considering the limitations of being FWD. This would be for Gymkhana racing and canyon carving only.
Specs
My car is a 1998 GST Spyder putting out 300hp at the wheels.
Suspension wise it currently has the modifications listed below. Where do I go from here?


Any help will be appreciated.
Pro-Kit Lowering Springs (Eibach)<O:p</O:p
Front Upper Strut Tower Stress Bar (Road Race Engineering)<O:p></O:p>
Front & Rear Camber Adjuster Kits (Buschur Racing)<O:p></O:p>
17X7 lightweight GF1 Wheels (Einke)<O:p></O:p>
215/45ZR-17 87W AVS ES100 Tires (Yokahama)

v413nc3
03-02-2011, 04:22 AM
Ditch the Eibach springs they're junk. Hypercoils are the only way to go. As for good, one of the proven best suspensions is KW. I know a very specific FWD 2G that is running them with great success. Look up Andrew Brilliant's car. Make sure you get a proper spring rate for your setup. It's very easy to spring a car wrong. Other than that, there are some quite knowledgable guys in the area for setting up suspension. I would suggest looking at your car like an AutoX car if you plan on doing the Gymkhana stuff.